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Founders Steve Jones and DeSean Brown explain pocstock, a content and responsible-AI data company delivering inclusive, culturally accurate visuals and datasets. They talk to Jim Barrood about their careers bridging tech, agencies, and entrepreneurship; clients across brands and agencies; worldwide guidance/production services; and efforts to fix AI bias via better metadata and global datasets.
Steve Jones: I am one of the co-founders of pocstock. We're a content company focused on inclusive content responsible AI data. So what I do is I lead the company as the CEO along with DeSean Brown as my co-founder. And we just set a vision for what we want the world to be, and every day we just execute against that vision.
Jim Barrood: Excellent. Okay. DeSean.
DeSean Brown: So I'm Chief Leadership Officer and co-founder. I am the partnership in people person. And that's all partnerships with the company. So think about the people who buy content from us, people who distribute content for us, people who supply content to us. And people will supply money to us, our investors.
My job is to make sure everyone is on mission, on vision, sees the value and the purpose, and is perpetually delivering and enjoys working with us. That's really important to us.
Jim Barrood: Awesome. So let's take a step back, Steve. Let's talk about your journey. Let's talk about high school, college, and how you got to where you are today.
Take us through your life here.
Steve Jones: I'm a lifelong entrepreneur. Started my first venture at 16 and I'm a creative, I'm a tech guy as well, so I love to be at the inter intersection of creativity and technology and almost everything I've done since 16 has been some way loosely involved in those two things.
So I have run everything from a record label to. Graphic design studios. I built an award-winning digital agency working with Fortune 500 companies and brands to execute against some big ideas. I am a tech guy. I am an idea guy. So I love to create things and that's what all of that work that I've done my entire life to build and create and launch platforms has led me to doing the same thing here at P Stock today.
Jim Barrood: Great. And tell us a bit more about your former work experiences before you started P Stock.
Steve Jones: So right before POC I ran a digital agency and we built cutting edge technology, leading and bleeding edge technologies from mobile apps to, when flash animation was a thing, we were one of the companies that were putting out all of that cutting edge flash animation, working with Cartoon Network and a lot of big media companies to create these really immersive platforms.
Then later on, got into running marketing and. And building out brands for, for Fortune 500 companies, celebrities, athletes, you name it. So building things has been my life journey. And that's essentially what I've done at e every company that I've been a part of.
Jim Barrood: Fantastic. DeSean, talk to us.
DeSean Brown: Oh, man. So I'm an astronaut. I've been all over the universe doing all types of things. Starting out in college, I was a tech guy too. I was a coder back in the 19 hundreds, so I literally took a cobalt class. I after give people the right frame of mind as. To how old I am, but it was at the time when web development really started to be a thing when Google started to be a thing.
So it was an exciting time. But having said that, I graduated and I interviewed for a Fortune extra time of Fortune 10 company, carbon Health, and they said, you have way too much personality and insight to just stick you in a computer lab to codes off all day. We need to put you on the business so you can work with people.
So you'll be the liaison translating. Technology and machine language into human language and business. So I did that for about nine years. Learned a lot. It's very helpful to learn how massive enterprises, how they work and how they don't work. And at that company, I happened to meet a gentleman named Steve Jones, who you may have heard of.
Who was our local webmaster, and we would find ways to build our own apps and solutions to fix the company's problems and.
Actually a few years later, Steve started his own agency, was able to afford me and said, Hey, come over to the dark side to work for a digital agency. So I thought I was really sharp and could handle anything. I had to really get adjusted to working for an agency and agency life. I spent about a decade, actually, more than a decade, 12 years working in advertising.
Producer, digital producer, account manager, strategist. My last job at life was a of client success. So I've done a little bit of everything. I've seen the entire life cycle about how we tried to understand humans, communicate to them sell them things, and I was ready for another. Challenge. I think the thing that's been in me is going back to being a coder, wanting to build things.
So agency life is great. It's great understanding how the world communicates and tries to touch human beings, but I wanted to build something. And once again some guy Steve Jones found me and said, Hey, I have an opportunity and an idea to build something, and that thing talks up. And here I'm today.
Jim Barrood: Awesome. Awesome. So tell us about Puck Stock. So when did it start, and bring us up to date? From sort of the inception until now.
Steve Jones: So the inception was frustration with not being able to find images featuring people of color. That was the inception. So DeSean and I were both working at different agencies and we were working on marketing and creative campaigns where we needed to showcase people as they show up in the world.
And some of the larger platforms, the legacy platform did not have an abundant source of images featuring various cultural groups from around the world. And it was an ongoing thing that we as individuals were experiencing. But the larger the. Industry of marketers and creators were also experiencing the same issue.
And this was about 10, 10, 10 years or so ago. About six years ago, we decided to do something about it when we formed P Stock, but it was really, initially, it. We looked at how big this problem was, where there was a lack of inclusion of different people. Whether it's based on race, culture, gender, body types, skin tones, all of those facets of humanity and ident human identification were missing from the stock photography industry.
So when we started P Stock, our first launch was a stock photography platform that addresses those issues. So we built this global platform. We attracted creators from around the world. We had them submit their content and tell their stories, and then we started supplying it to, again, fortune 500 companies, ad agencies, and brands Next after we had our platform going, and people are utilizing it every day.
To find content for commercial and editorial purposes. Our next venture, which is what we're working on now, is to do that, to solve those same challenges that are showing up now in the data that su that, sort of powers the AI industry which could potentially be a bigger challenge than stock photography because AI is going to be everything to everyone in the next couple of years.
So we're, we got out there early and. In terms of trying to help solve those problems for the AI industry. So that's really what the journey has been, and we're really excited as to where AI is going in general, but we're also cautiously optimistic that AI companies will then. Recognize that they need to grow and scale responsibly through accurate and complete data sets, and that's where we come in.
Jim Barrood: Fascinating and we'll get into that responsible AI as a bit more, but DeSean, I want to get your perspective on how, you know your role has grown in the company.
DeSean Brown: Oh man. I think to, to Steve's point we started the company to solve a challenge, and my role has been to fully understand the depth of that challenge.
I think there's a business challenge, meaning anyone, corporations, brands, advertisers need content to communicate to people, right? There's a business opportunity for us to fulfill that, wanting to do let's say, in a diverse and inclusive manner. So that's where we come in. The bigger part of my job is the educational piece, so I could supply you with a solution, but if you don't know how to use it.
That's an additional challenge. So in addition to supplies of content, we've also become educators to, I just say about every client and customer we work with to not just use the content, but how do you use it, how do you use it in a culturally accurate and inclusive and an authentic way. And to Steve's point that started off as stock for advertising.
The same holds true with ai, so we focus a lot on the technology of ai. My role has been to actually meet companies fully understand what does diversity, inclusion, ethical content, what does that mean to you? Does it mean anything? Is it legit? Is it real? If it is a real concern to you, then I could help support you with the intelligence needed to find the right content for the right audiences.
So it's, it has been a, it's been a learning process for me. Candidly. But it's interesting that we become the wise savior and educators for billion dollar companies who I get it, they've got goals to sell stuff and make money, but it's how we go about that. That's been perpetually part of the challenge and part of the solution that we're trying to bring to the market.
Jim Barrood: Got it. And it's a moving target, right? Things are. Influx like never before, right? From the back, well from the, DEI perspective, right? That's come under some challenge obviously from the administration to ai, which is upending everything, right? And moving at light speed
DeSean Brown: and PE people change.
Culture change, that's every day people change, culture changes. And I think technology, it seems life changes at the speed of light, and I get it working for a massive agency, a massive company. How do you keep up if you're, if you are in, if you're on podcasts all day, you're in meetings all day, you're on board meetings all day.
When are you in tune to life? When are you in tune to what's happening? When are you in tune to representation and which groups are and are not representative? We come in, that's Steven de, this is what we live. This is what we do. So you can always tap into us as your culturally fluent, cool cousins to say, Hey help me understand what's going on and how we could.
Legitimately, authentically be better. Not superficially be better, but I get it is a challenge. I get it. because Steven, I used to be those people, which is why we had to stop working within the system, step outside of the system to build the solution because it is a meat grinder and it could grind you up.
And we decided to, we didn't want that to be our destiny.
Jim Barrood: For sure. So tell us about your customers or what would be a typical customer? What would they how would they partner with you?
DeSean Brown: If you are an agency, I would say you are looking to be an ambassador for whatever brand or client you're representing and what audiences they're trying to speak to and how you can find a content and production partner that's going to be different.
Because a lot of people, technology allows a lot of people to develop content. So a strategic advantage is well, who understands culture, who understands representation. So they technically know how to shoot things, but they know how to do so in a culturally way. So an agency is going to look at their strategy, look for partners like us to say, we can show up in a very authentic way.
Using a pot stock for a corporate enterprise, you've got a lot of stakeholders. You've got internally, right? So we have to communicate to the people who work for us, because they matter. We have to communicate to our community stakeholders, we have to communicate to our customers. Those relationships seems to be a big wider.
So we come and we try to understand each segment, each audience and what's the right fit. And I think that's where we're different. It's not just. Hopefully you find some black people. Good luck. It's more so let's have a conversation. You tell me what you're looking for, what's needed. We find the talent and the content to help you, again, authentically achieve your goals.
Steve Jones: Yeah, and at the end of the day, we're all people. So people need to learn how to communicate with each other respectfully, authentically, and in a way that is productive towards their goals, right? So if you're looking to build, if you're a company of any kind, whether you're a small business nonprofit or large global corporation.
Every business relies on people to be engaged with them in order for their businesses to be successful. So how do you do that in a way that's meaningful in today's age where everything is visual, all marketing and advertising, even AI generated content, it's all visual. So having that visual representation that makes people feel like they're attached to your product, your brand, and your brand understands you.
You've seen in the news in recent years where when people at brands get it wrong in terms of their visual representation of people, there's a backlash, right? On both sides. You can do something where you feel is right because you're speaking to one group and you alienate other members of your group.
Your audience, so it's a delicate balance. We help brands navigate. We help small and mid-sized companies get. An idea of where it can go right. Or where it can go wrong. But at the end of the day, we're all just people trying to communicate with each other in the best, most respectful way we can, and we just help people understand that.
Jim Barrood: So you work for companies as well as agencies supplying them with images and videos or, I know you have a big database of images, right? What's what are we talking about here?
Steve Jones: Sure. We do both. And the, and our content library is only one portion of what we do. So we have a stock library, that's one of our assets.
We have our AI data marketplace. We have our production, global production studio where we produce content for brands or anywhere in the world really. And then we also, as DeSean mentioned, there's some consultancy that goes along with how to accurately. And authentically have these conversations with folks.
But yes, from a tactical standpoint, we have an image library. It has videos, it has photos, it has illustrated content. And at one point in the future, we may have audio or other forms of media, but those are the three that we have currently.
Jim Barrood: Wow that's fascinating. And so AI is here.
Talk to us about the challenges and the opportunities for P Stock.
DeSean Brown: The challenge for me, the guy who lives this 24 7 is, I don't want to say people don't know what they're doing, that's inaccurate. Things change rapidly. The goalpost is shifting in terms of goals and objectives, right? So for us it's constantly having to pivot to both. Try to meet an AI tech company where they're where they are, while also trying to guide them as to the benefit of having.
Culturally fluent, accurate, inclusive data sets. Everyone doesn't, everyone isn't altruistic in this game. Let's just say it that way. So I think it's an opportunity, right? Like when everyone doesn't know the value of data, it's an opportunity for us to explain what that is and offering them something new that'll hopefully enhance their product and the relationship between their product and their user base.
For those who do get it, it is how do we really work strategically at maybe even a local level to say, how do we make this product better for South Africa? How do we make this product better for Central America? Like literally start to target geographies, regions, and communities instead of it is blanket AI for everyone.
I don't even know what that. Really means. So I think the industry is maturing day over day and you just gotta be agile. You have to accept it that a need on Tuesday may not be the same need by the end of the week.
Steve Jones: Yeah. I think for me, the challenges are one. There is no central governing body over the AI industry, right?
There's no SEC, there's no FCC, there's no FDA that kind of governs and sets the rules of the road and puts the guardrails in place. So it's literally internally, we call it the wild west, right? So it's, we're at the frontier of the next big thing, right? It's the next, this is the cotton gin transformation for the manufacturing.
This is the internet transformation. This is the. The personal computer like this is that pivotal, the invention of the wheel, like it's going to be that sharp of a of a change in the human curve of technology, right? But it's going to happen a lot faster than other industries have.
If you look at the transformation of the internet from inception in the seventies to now, it's not that. 50 years of transformation is going to happen in five, 10 years with ai. And there's no governing body saying this is what you can and can't do. So it's dealing with AI companies on a daily basis where one company has this set of rules.
This company has no rules. This company, it's just. That is to me is the biggest challenge is getting some sort of centralized understanding of how to responsibly roll out AI platforms. because they could potentially be harmful. Every sci-fi movie ends with AI taking over and killing us all, and there's no one really preventing these things from going that way.
And so your
Jim Barrood: role your company's role in helping companies. Protect against, manage do it right with ai or just images in general so that they're not fakes or what is the solution that you, or solutions that you folks are providing now?
Steve Jones: So that's where the opportunity comes in.
So every AI company, especially in the space we play in, which is a generative AI space relies on data in order to train their AI models in order to accurately produce and results. So where we come in is we help to, fundamentally, transform what those data sets are in terms of just filling in the gap.
So if you can imagine that we mentioned that some of the larger stock companies have had challenges with inclusion of different racial groups and cultural groups from around the world. For decades, this has been a multi-decade long problem. When you have a company. Like with the scale of an open AI or anthropic or others, when they need massive amounts of data, they're going to the sources.
One, they're going to the internet or they used to go to the internet. And now they're going to, when they're licensing data, they're going to the same sources that has been. Having challenges with inclusion for the entire lifecycle. And so now AI is being trained with all of these gaps in how to accurately represent or describe certain characteristics around different people, whether it's the cultural garb, whether it's the hairstyles, different attributes for these folks.
So what we come in is where we help them refine that data. So we help them say, okay, our data sets include culturally accurate metadata that will allow you to identify this particular hairstyle from this particular culture, this particular skin tone. This is what this is called. This is what that is called.
And then AI will learn these things about people. That no one else cared to know before because it wasn't a high priority. Now that is one part of the work we're doing. On the other side, we sit on boards of organizations who are thinking about how to responsibly manage ai. So we could sit in places where we have a voice at the table about the direction of ai.
Now, that in itself is not. The end solution, it's going to need to be legislation at some point. But at least we're now in the rooms where some of these AI companies are discussing openly their thoughts, their aspirations, what they're looking to do, and we can say here's how these things should go.
And, here's some things to think about. If you're in a room where everyone looks just like you and thinks just like you. Those outside ideas never make it into your ears. Sure, you don't have to listen to all, but at least now you're aware that there's another way to think about what you're doing.
And that's what we represent in those rooms.
Jim Barrood: Got it. Now what about poke stock poc? How big do you want to get? What's your Strat, what's your exit strategy or where do you want to be in five years?
Steve Jones: Wow. So we're our next, we're looking to build a hundred million dollar company and we're looking to build a company that will make a global impact on all things creative tech and culture for the foreseeable future. So we're just looking to build a great company and at some point we'll be entertaining exit options if that, if they present themselves.
We have had some early offers to exit. Some early on ramps, but what we're building. It's not finished yet, and we still have a lot more work to do to get P stock into a place where it's a world. It's a known brand around the world, in, in the spaces that we're looking to be in. We want to be the place, the go-to place for all things data and ai.
All things cultural content and technology. And once we are there, if if the offers revisit, resurface at that higher valuation, then you know, we have to consider it along with our board and shareholders. But yeah, at that time, we're entertained offers, but for right now, we're just building a great company that solves some meaningful problems for the world.
Jim Barrood: Got it. And you guys have come so far. So when people ask you to share advice, say for entrepreneurs, why don't you give us one tip for entrepreneurs? We're looking to start an AI related venture,
Steve Jones: Steve. If you're looking to start an ai related venture I have sat in rooms with funders who are receiving.
Most of their deal flow has the word AI in it. If you're going to get into the AI industry, build something real. Don't just build something based on someone else's platform that those are meaningful tools. But if you're looking to raise money. Build something of your own. Look for problems that are not being solved.
Look for what's going next. AI moves so quickly so you can't build AI based on today, based. Look at it based on where it's going and build something that will solve a future problem. If you're like us, we didn't just start building AI tools. We built something that can service any AI company, so we're built into the fabric of.
The data structure for AI for the future. So build something that can scale. because AI will, AI moves so quickly and it changes rapidly. And just build something that's built for scale and something that you own, something that's yours, especially if you're looking to raise money to grow it, it takes a tremendous amount of resources to operate an AI platform,
Jim Barrood: Got it. Does, Sean, do you want to add anything?
DeSean Brown: I thought that was perfect in terms of. Make sure it actually is AI and not a company that's using ai. Those are two different things. So is it actually an AI driven company? My only add-on would be things change rapidly, so you have to plug yourself into existing AI circles so you can stay up to date.
Up to date is, it's going to change daily, but you want to be in both the zeitgeist, but also the information exchange. Meet people who are already building AI and learn from them and just network. But the closer you get to the circle and in the circle, it's going to inform you. How you build, how you fund, how you pitch, all of that.
Jim Barrood: Got it. We usually, this has been a great conversation. We usually ask a few lightning questions. So let me ask you first, Steve, real quick, what's one belief you had early on that's totally changed as an entrepreneur?
Steve Jones: That the one of the biggest ones is that the larger a company gets, the more it has it shit together, and that has not been the case at all.
Okay. What's, we found ourselves to be more buttoned up than a lot of larger companies.
Jim Barrood: That is fascinating. What's one TV or movie character that most resembles your founder style?
Steve Jones: That's a good one. I would have to say I'm a big sci-fi guy, so I would have to say Morpheus from the Matrix because I'm not the one, but I'm good at spotting talent and finding people who can transform,
Jim Barrood: I love it. I love it. And lastly, what's your favorite productivity tool or app?
Steve Jones: Right now it's ChatGPT. I live in that thing.
Jim Barrood: Very appropriate. DeSean, go ahead. What's one belief that you had early on that's totally changed?
DeSean Brown: That there were people who were exponentially smarter than me.
Jim Barrood: Okay. TV or movie character that resembles your founder style?
DeSean Brown: I don't want to change his fate, but string a bell from the wire.
Jim Barrood: Okay, great. And favorite productivity tool or app?
DeSean Brown: This is going to sound goofy for a guy who's be a tech guy. Google Keep, I have so many ideas. I have to get them out of my head. I ha I need a note taker. Otherwise I will be overwhelmed with the trillion ideas and also working with an idea guy.
So it's the only way that I can manage ideas to get them out on an app. Very basic
Jim Barrood: that No, that's fair. That's that, that makes a lot of sense actually. We usually end with a quote or a poem or a saying. Let's start with you Steve. What do you got?
Steve Jones: My favorite quote that I live my life by PAC Stock is built by around is an African proverb heard it a million times.
If you want to go fast, you go alone. And if you want to go far, you go together. And that's what we built the company around community. And we all go, we're all people going in the same direction together.
Jim Barrood: Nice. Thank you so much folks.
